Change of pace

Ryan mentioned to me yesterday he was getting in some ammo for a different comparison test.  He will be around to spill what he is getting into but I figured I would update on what Im trying to get done.  I won’t get drywall shooting done anytime soon.  Grandpa is in and out of the hospital and it means more time traveling and more chores and maintenance that needs done.  I have an assortment of random 55 grain ammo that I want to shoot in the style of Molon’s snapshots.  Basically speaking run it over the chronograph sharing groups and velocity info.  The values will not all be the same across atmospheric data but will be calmer and more controlled as I can shoot a load in a day or shoot one rifles worth of testing in any given sitting.

Rather than shooting away ammo in three nearly identical barrels, I went ahead and spent more money on two additional barrels.  This brought about another issue that the federal government decided 10.3 inch barrels are short barreled rifles if placed on our testing lower…..this means I need to use a pistol lower instead.  This is of no worry.  We will get great data from the following.

Ballistic Advantage Hanson profile 10.3 inch

Ballistic Advantage Hanson profile 16 inch

Faxon Gunner profile 18 inch. 


So far I have a handful of ammo types I hope to share.  This is by no means an all encompassing list and if you have been paying any attention we change our minds a lot.
If in some cases ammo is somewhat expensive or I happen to be in a big box store and grab a box; I will try my best to get a sample size worth sharing on each barrel but if I only have 50 rounds of an ammo type I would prefer to share groups from the 16 inch only as it is a middle of the road that may help someone rather than sharing less statistically viable numbers.  If you have a request feel free to chime in and I will look for it.  I will add ammo as I find more but am sticking to 55 grain for now.  Most of the stuff on the list is cheap that people can grab anywhere.  This is on purpose in the hopes to share rational group sizes.  As always no groups or shots will be omitted or altered.

Federal XM193 is a type of standard at this weight class.

The AE 55 grain seems to shoot similarly but we will wait on data

Wolf is generally not seen as a contender but the gold line shows promise

There will be several types of Tula and wolf that will be rung out

Silver bear, brown bear and any other bear I happen upon will be tested

MFS is something I have a few cases of and will test in all barrels

Hornady has several rounds in this group and I am interested to see how they compare.

Fiocchi shot well at 50 grain and is moderately priced

IMI had cases of its 55 grain 193 clone on sale (along with 69 and 77 but they will wait)

HSM is an ammo that I have shot before and was impressed with.  I have never used the 55 grain.

I am certain I will fall onto some random match 55 grain types that will be added in.

Layout will be a more simplified and hopeful not as long winded version on what we have been doing.  A master post will be set up with running information but will likely only contain the “best group” as well as average velocity with average standard deviation.

The rest of the 18 inch gunner’s stuff will be in shortly and I may share info on it as I put it together just because.

Black Hills 52 grain hollow point match Re-manufactured

Remember we are shooting a 24 inch krieger 1:7.7 twist and the Ballistic Advantage hanson profile 16 inch and Larue predatar 16 inch are both 1:8

Atmo for the day

Start time 1120/ winds 4-10 no value/ temp 74.4/ ele 1470/baro 29.76


Quick Look



Extreme Spread





Group one

3267                     Average 3267.31

3260                    High 3285.89

3256                    Low 3256.29

3286                   Extreme Spread 29.6

-LR missed shot   Standard Deviation 13.18

Group two

3273                  Average 3272.51

3263                 High 3294.84

3259                Low 3259

3273                Extreme Spread 35.84

3295               Standard Deviation 13.91

Group three

3264             Average 3272.51

3276             High 3289.22

3258             Low 3258.3

3275            Extreme Spread 30.92

3289           Standard Deviation 11.97


Average velocity was 3270.78 FPS and Standard Deviation 13.02





This round didn’t play well with the Larue barrel.  It was consistently all over the place.  The composite is still inside of 2.5 inch or so but not what I would have expected from the round.


Group one

2943                     Average 2966.47

2967                    Highest 2992.24

2960                   Low 2943.43

2992                  Extreme Spread 48.81

2970                  Standard Deviation 17.67

Group two

2986               Average 2978.43

2987              High 2989.85

2990             Low 2963.92

2965             Extreme Spread 25.93

2964            Standard Deviation 12.9

Group three

2985             Average 2991.17

2993             High 3016.86

2991             Low 2969.89

3017             Extreme Spread 46.97

2970            Standard Deviation 17.03


Average Velocity came out to 2978.69 with a standard deviation of 15.87 FPS

Ballistic Advantage Hanson




This groups a bit better.


Group one

2923       Average  2930.75

2948       High 2948

2925       Low 2922.92

2927         False read on labradar don’t care to figure spread and std dev

Group two

2949         Average 2948.17

2943         High 2963.01

2937         Low 2937.33

2949        Extreme Spread 25.68

2963        Standard Deviation 9.57

Group three

2970             Average 2973.23

2959            High 2991.44

2991            Low 2958.98

2964           Extreme Spread 32.45

2982           Standard Deviation 13.34



Ordered some random IMI 55, 69 and 77 grain on sale today for testing.  Also got some HSM re-manufactured 55 to get thrown in with the 55 test coming up.

Future Posts

I have one last 50ish grain to put out from a few weeks ago yet which is 52 grain black hills re-manufactured.  I hope to process that soon and get on to other things.

During the memorial day deals I decided to go ahead and retire my PSA 10.5 barrel which was at just under 13k rounds of junk ammo.  The groups have opened up and I wanted to replace it with something to share a shorter barrel velocities in future tests.  I was able to find a Ballistic Advantage Hanson profile 10.3 barrel.  It won’t sit in an identical set up like we did for our semi lightweight rundown simply because I don’t think we got much return on that and I have a current rifle that is simply being re-barreled.  I also purchased a Faxon 18 inch gunner barrel as I have seen lots of talk about them and wanted to purchase one.  I considered purchasing a BA hanson in that length but I don’t really have any brand allegiance so I went with something I wanted to have.  We could add a half dozen varying sizes or configurations to any test but in the end I just want to get some decent data out there for people who might use it.  It should be noted that I paid for those barrels receiving the same discount any shopper would have received at the same time.  I purchased them from a 3rd party dealer and made no reference to the fact that they would be used for any form of reporting.  I see pretty steady social media presence from both barrel makers and look forward to the results.

When those two barrels arrive I will begin a 55 grain shoot out using lots of cheaper varieties many new shooters or people on a budget can get hands on.  The test will compare the BA 10.3, BA 16 and Faxon 18.  Im not 100% on which ammo brands and versions I will shoot.  I have a pretty large collection of different things but am a fan of stopping by a gun shop and shooting something I wouldn’t regularly shoot.  This test will likely take a big step away from the MOA groupings we have seen with some of the higher grade ammo types.  I wasn’t very excited to be spending money on barrels instead of ammunition but its always good to start at a known quality and quantity.

New Barrel data below


Faxon 18inch Gunner found HERE

  • Barrel Type: Button Rifled
  • Barrel Caliber: 5.56 NATO
  • Barrel Twist: 1:8
  • Barrel Length: 18″
  • Barrel Profile: GUNNER Light Hybrid
  • Barrel Gas System: Rifle Length
  • Inside Finish: QPQ Nitride
  • Outside Finish: QPQ Nitride
  • Muzzle Thread: 1/2-28 TPI (Threads Per Inch)
  • Gas Block Diameter: .625″
  • Gas Port Diameter: .093″
  • Gas Block Journal Length: 1.9″
  • Barrel Extension: M4
  • Weight: 1.44 lbs
  • Magnetic Particle Inspected!
  • 11-degree Target Crown

From BA website found HERE

Length 10.3″
Material 416R Stainless Steel
Profile Hanson
Finish Bead Blasted
Gas System Length Carbine
Gas Block Journal 1.03″ Gas Block Seat for .625″ Low Profile Gas Blocks Only
Twist Rate 1:8 inches
Muzzle 1/2×28 Threaded
Weight 17oz
Other Info HP and MPI Tested

American Eagle Varmint & Predator 50 grain JHP

This was a quick walmart purchase on the way out to the range.  It kept in line with the 50ish grain testing.

Remember we are shooting a 24 inch krieger 1:7.7 twist and the Ballistic Advantage hanson profile 16 inch and Larue predatar 16 inch are both 1:8

Atmo for the day

Start time 1120/ winds 4-10 no value/ temp 74.4/ ele 1470/baro 29.76

Quick look


Krieger Barrel

Extreme Spread




The composite of groups shows a consistent ring of just over an Inch at 100 yards.  For the cost of the ammo this surprised me.  In my shooting notes I made a remark about the top right group stating that the 4th round felt off and was the round that is hard right.  It was likely a very small change but was felt as a mistake in pulling the trigger.


Group One

3495                            Average 3489.23

3483                            High 3495.43

3488                            Low 3482.9

3491                            Extreme Spread 12.53

3489                           Standard Deviation 4.64

Group Two

3502                          Average 3504.32

3524                         High 3524.12

3507                         Low 3483.88

3484                        Extreme Spread 40.24

Standard Deviation 16.53

Only 4 shots were registered on LabRadar

Group Three

3479                      Average 3488.21

3476                      High 3505.24

3498                     Low 3475.67

3484                     Extreme Spread 29.57

3505                     Standard Deviation 12.74


Average velocity came in at 3493.92 while standard deviation came in at 11.3 FPS




Velocity comparison

We can see that the AE 50 kept up in terms of velocity to the black hills 50 grain vmax while the fiocchi 50 grain vmax lags behind.





Groups speak for themselves.


Groups One

3080                      Average 3093.32

3128                      High 3127.72

3095                     Low 3080.17

3081                      Extreme Spread 47.55

3083                     Standard Deviation 20.08

Group Two

3136                    Average 3116.43

3137                    High 3137.27

3109                   Low 3086.79

3113                   Extreme Spread 50.48

3087                 Standard Deviation 20.88

Group Three

3148                 Average 3119.88

3092               High 3148

3115                Low 3092

3117                Extreme Spread 56

3127               Standard Deviation 20.27


Average velocity came to 3109.88 FPS with a standard deviation of 20.41 FPS

Ballistic Advantage Hanson

Extreme Spread




Groups paint a pretty large picture.


Group One

3096                     Average 3106.4

3133                      High 3133

3077                     Low 3077

3109                    Extreme Spread 56

3117                     Standard Deviation 15.92

Group two

3106                   Average 3103.6

3124                   High 3123.99

3069                  Low 3068.9

3103                  Extreme Spread 55.09

3116                  Standard Deviation 21.04

Group three

3106                Average 3088.9

3115                 High 3115.26

3077                Low 3057.85

3088               Extreme Spread 57.41

3058               Standard Deviation 22.93


Average Velocity 3099.63 with standard deviation of 19.96 FPS



Black Hills 50 grain VMAX remanufactured

This 50 grain V-max is loaded by black hills using once fired brass.

Remember we are shooting a 24 inch krieger 1:7.7 twist and the Ballistic Advantage hanson profile and Larue predatar are both 1:8

Atmo for the day

Start time 1120/ winds 4-10 no value/ temp 74.4/ ele 1470/baro 29.76

Quick Look

Krieger Barrel

Extreme Spread group sizes.




The groups vary by a half inch but yet again we can compare each group with the same aiming point and see that the entire 15 round aggregate comes together quite nicely.  I will have to spend the money on the software that lets me quickly do that.

Velocity came out like this

Group one

3442              Average 3447.2

3449             High 3464.05

3439             Low 3438.91

3442             Extreme Spread 25.14

3464            Standard Deviation 10.1

Group two

3476            Average 3467.42

3440            High 3486.12

3486           Low 3440.38

3472            Extreme Spread 45.74

3462            Standard Deviation 17.33

Group three

3433           Average 3453.16

3457          High 3483.21

3440         Low 3432.52

3483         Extreme Spread 50.69

3453          Standard Deviation 19.43

Average of the Averages

Average velocity came to 3455.9 FPS with a standard deviation average of 15.62 FPS


The speed difference between the Fiocchi 50 grain vmax and the Black Hills was substantial.

See Nicks getting better at graphs and stuff





The groups are misleading with the 2.348 top left group.  There is a definite chance for a ‘pulled shot’ or statistical outlier involved but looking at the spread of the two subsequent groups we see a nice round group approximately 1 inch in size.  The top left group can e seen to have 3 shots within that same 1 inch circle with a hard left hit less than 1/4 inch to the left of the group and a hard right hit almost 3/4 of an inch off from the group.  Perhaps Nick should concentrate on his trigger squeeze.


Group one

3110                  Average 3096.89

3070                High 3112.59

3094               Low 3069.63

3099              Extreme Spread 42.96

3113                Standard Deviation 17.08

Group two

3103               Average 3116.02

3113               High 3128.93

3125              Low 3103.24

3110             Extreme Spread 25.7

3129            Standard Deviation 10.79

Group three

3127             Average 3119.49

3125             High 3135.95

3087            Low 3087.23

3122            Extreme Spread 48.72

3136            Standard Deviation 18.76

Average of the averages

Average Velocity was 3110.8 FPS with a standard deviation of 15.54 FPS

Ballistic Advantage Hanson




Yet again Nick has an outlier in the data.


Group one

One shot is missing from chronograph data

3101                 Average 3098.18

3110                 High 3109.69

3104                Low 3078.42

3078               Extreme Spread 31.27

Standard Deviation 13.68

Group two

3113             Average 3089.04

3080           High 3112.88

3085           Low 3079.65

3080           Extreme Spread 33.23

3087           Standard Deviation 13.73

Group three

3111            Average 3109.92

3115            High 3112.57

3087           Low 3087.28

3115            Extreme Spread 35.3

3123           Standard Deviation 13.39

Average of Averages

Average velocity came out to 3099 FPS with a standard deviation of 13.6 FPS

And here is how Black Hills 50 grain VMAX compared to the Fiocchi 50 grain VMAX

Again I found that this round would have been suitable in any of our barrels as a varmint or predator round.  The big step up from the Fiocchi to the Black hills is the velocity.  I may come back and plug in this velocity data into my ballistic calculator to show the changes in round impact due to wind the almost 200 FPS change would mean between one round over another or the change between the Fiocchi in one of the 16 inch guns in comparison to the Black Hills in the Krieger.  The take away is that new shooters must realize that just because two loads use the same projectile they are not necessarily equal.

Fiocchi 50 grain VMAX

Sorry for the delay guys.  Grandpa has been in the hospital and this didn’t take priority.  In the future I think Im going to try to limit to one load a day.  Its easy to try to cram a ton into a session.  I shot about 4 hours last week and it is pretty draining trying to get the best groups you can.  I also got a gnarly sun burn on the back of my legs despite the multiple applications of sun screen and when shooting alone walking 100m a whole bunch of times adds up.

Fiocchi 50 grain VMAX is the first round Im gonna ring out just because someone on a gun group on facebook was just asking about them.  I believe this is the cheapest ammo I shot in the 50-53 catagory recently and it really surprised me.

Remember we are shooting a 24 inch krieger 1:7.7 twist and the Ballistic Advantage hanson profile and Larue predatar are both 1:8

Atmo for the day

Start time 1120/ winds 4-10 no value/ temp 74.4/ ele 1470/baro 29.76

Quick Look

The krieger seemed consistently ok with the 50 grain vmax

Group sizes(5 shot)




Click and you can blow up the group.  Note that the aiming point was the same on each of these targets.  That makes it so you can eye ball overlay a 15 shot group and the fliers don’t look as much like fliers.  Any of those three groups could have been dissected into perfection.  The reality hits in when you put all your data out.

Velocity info (in FPS)


group one

3265                Average 3219.23

3218                High 3264.91

3202                Low 3188.58

3223                Ex Spread 76.34

3189               Standard Dev 28.96

group two

3273               Average 3272.51

3263               High 3294.84

3259               Low 3259

3273               Extreme Spread 35.84

3295               Standard Dev 13.91


Group three

3264               Average 3272.51

3276               High 3289.22

3258               Low 3258.3

3275               Ext Spread 30.92

3289              Standard Dev 11.97

Average of the Average

3254.75 FPS running speed was on the low side for the telephone pole barrel but the standard deviations averaging at 18.28 kept things pretty tight.





Again we can quickly eyeball a composite and see that the top right group clearly has a flier or outlier in the group.  The being said the composite still shows a drag out in the over all group both vertically and horizontally.  It would be very easy for someone with an ego to place a dime over the two low shots on the bottom right group calling it a pristine 3 shot group.

Lets pull out the velocity

Group one

2924                      Average 2909.98

2880                      High 2923.99

2903                      Low 2879.52

2920                      Extreme Spread 44.47

2924                      Standard Dev 19.07

Group two

2893                     Average 2912.1

2882                    High 2949.14

2949                    Low 2881.55

2929                    Extreme Spread 67.59

2907                    Standard Dev 27.23

Group three

Again Im missing a shot.  This happens through lab radar failure or me being stupid and forgetting to hit arm on the radar before I shoot a group.  You are getting a lot of data for free so shut up.

2936                  Average 2948.91

2982                 High 2982.32

2918                  Low 2918.2

2959                 Extreme Spread 64.13

Standard Dev 27.88

Average of the Averages

Average velocity was 2923.66 out of this 16 inch barrel.  The standard deviation was a less exciting 24.73.


Ballistic Advantage Hanson




This load in the rifle seemed a pretty consistent 2 moa zone shooter.  Stack them up and you fill a pretty uniform 4 block area each of which is 1 inch on these targets.


Group one

2955                    Average 2916.92

2933                    High 2954.91

2904                   Low 2874.09

2874                   Extreme Spread 80.81

2919                    Standard Dev 30.51

Group two

2930                   Average 2921.62

2898                  High 2932.38

2932                  Low 2897.74

2930                  Extreme Spread 34.64

2919                   Standard Dev 14.35


Group three

2872                  Average 2910.39

2935                  High 2955.7

2877                  Low 2871.96

2912                  Extreme Spread 83.74

2956                 Standard Dev 36.08

Average of Averages

This 16 inch light weight barrel averaged a velocity of 2916.31 with a standard deviation of 26.98.


In the end we found that each of these barrels shot groups that would be considered more than adequate for varmint usage.  The 50 grain Vmax bullet is very well suited for it and even at a 2 moa group it would be more than capable for most small game including coyotes.  At the price you could easily stack it deep and get loads of dope for field use in the future.

In this same shooting session I also fired

Black Hills 52 grain

Black Hills 50 grain vmax

American Eagle varmint and predator 50 grain JHP

Those will be along sooner or later.  Sorry for the lack of fancy graphs and stuff they will be along sooner or later Im just really bad at that stuff.

I took this picture as I left the corn field I was shooting in.  I knew right away it was gonna hurt.

Only accurate rifles are interesting

Townie had it about right.  Then again he also claimed “the 30-06 is never a mistake”…so we will give him a solid B+ for effort.  Our light weight shootout was a bit of a stressful cap to the year last fall.  We did a lot of shooting in a day and then got to process some data.  I was out shooting last weekend and talking to Hoover throughout the process about how rusty I was.  I had been shooting throughout the winter but outdoor long range in the cold and windy Iowa grass land is a bitch and a half.

I told him I was going out to shoot my krieger for a bit and he asked if I was gonna share the info on SOTG.  I wanted to but the reality was I was shooting an OCW using 52 grain match burner bergers in a 24 inch barrel going 3500 fps.  It really doesn’t apply to what most folk are getting into.  Dumb pet projects aside I was able to lay behind a gun comfortably and work on putting rounds down range in an precise fashion.  Dry firing on carpet is great and all but you really need to get in and do the dirty to make it all relevant.

Hoover reminded me that we should probably think about getting some holes in paper along with data to share with our hombres who seem to care.  I have been amazed every time I check the site to see people are still coming to take a look.  I especially like seeing it when it is at  So this is the part where I remind folks that Nick is an electrician and a hobbyist.  He isn’t a real scientist or a pro gun slinger.

Without further ado I give you.  Light weight shoot out addendum.

I don’t have a criterion hybrid here and it just doesn’t matter.  I will substitute a krieger 24 inch 7.7 twist SS barrel.  I know what you are thinking.  Yea well Nick thats not exactly light weight stud.  My response is cool beans bro.  I want to see how some random match loads shoot in my personal gun as compared to my handloads.  So in me shooting a handful of loads I get some data for myself and we can present a few more groups with the larue and BA hanson.  I will be using my ADM ambi lower with a bcm grip, geissele national match DMR trigger and xlr ar stock.  I will  also be pulling my vortex razor II 4.5-27 which is the same type of glass we used last go around only its mine and not Hoovers.  I spent 3 minutes looking for my single round follower with no dice so if I find it I will use it otherwise tough luck.

Close enough right….right

Tomorrow I hope to shoot the following.

Two are repeats.  The Australian Outback 69 grain will make a second appearance as well as Black Hills reman 52 grain.  Im shooting them again to make a comparison to the last iteration but also because I like shooting guns and stuff.  The mags are hornady 75 grain steel match.  They were mailed out last test like this and I promised I would shoot them over chrono even if I didn’t get group data what with our rushed timeframe.  I didn’t get to it then.  I will plug three 10 round groups through the larue and the BA with them sorry dudes not putting that in my krieger.  The Norma match is a 77 grain SMK that will be shot through each gun in 5 shot groups.  As will the Black Hills 50 grain V-maxs.  Im going to make a quick run to a local shop in the A.M. hoping to score some Federal 50 grain tipped varmint.  In our initial test we had some pretty intense claims of guys shooting federal 50 grain.  I knew right away I wanted to get some in and see.  I saw a box of the 50 grain V-maxs and wanted to shoot them as well as the federal in hopes I get a cheap varmint round out of one of them.

-Edited to add-

Found Fiocchi 50 grain V-max here at the house and will test them as well.  I may adjust tomorrow based on what I find in stock leaving out the norma match for now and staying with a bunch of small rounds.  Time will tell.


All in all not much to it.  I will log atmo and I will have a lab radar out and set.  Im not sure how polished the data will be but I will try to at least get them processed in on target.

Future predictions.

The fine folks at farros lead farm have an order in for me of 77 grain TMK’s in a load that they sell.  I shot some through Hoovers service rifle and it blew my skirt up so I want to get some for future testing.  I still have several good match 22 rounds I will like to compare between my 10/22 with tac sol threaded barrel and Hoovers super pimp sauce cz 455 elite uber tactical.  Most likely that will wait until my .22 can is out of jail because quiet guns are pretty interesting too.  I am also slowly getting stuff together to do a remake on a very classic and respected test done by the box of truth.  Old Painless was one of my favorite posters on before my untimely yet inevitable crash and burn.  The box of truth is regularly referenced in shotgun propaganda threads.  My hope is to go back and test using the same criteria TBOT used only using viable home defense rounds.  It seems silly to compare 00 buck, birdshot and xm193 in my mind because if you are using xm193 or 115 grain ball rounds through a 9mm for home defense you are dumb.  I personally use gold dot 55 grain and 115 grain for my rifle and pistol for if/when the shit gets sideways.  I hope to test flight control #1 through a 12 gauge as well as a few common AR15 defense loads in a rifle and sbr configuration as well as 9mm rounds through a simple glock.  Of course we will also track some velocities and stuff too.  I will also be dropping random ammo snapshots in the style of Molon turning away from the match loads we have been concentrating on.  On the table right now are the cheap seats.  I have wolf gold, xm193 tula and probably silver bear that will go head to head sometime this month yet.  I had septoplasty and turbinoplasty a few weeks ago and I don’t want to shoot too much in a single session.  I hope to get stuff logged as I do it so nothing gets too backed up.  Wanna see something else?  Ask or shout out.


Delay in science

Im posting up quick to say hey we are alive….  Winter has been long and hard in Iowa and most of the shooting I have been doing has been fast and frozen.  I am hoping to get some good chronograph data and comparison groups using a handful of match grade .22 offerings through a tacsol 16 inch threaded barrel.  Its something I will be doing for myself to figure out if I like the barrel and which match ammo I should stock up on for that particular gun.  It is my sons but I paid for it so I should be allowed to play with it too.


Im working concept of operation up for a test comparing a .22 9mm .223 and 12 gauge for home defense purposes.  There are lots of preconceived notions about the rounds and how they react inside a house.  It turns out when you wire condominiums and are nice to the sheet rock guys they are willing to let you steal large amounts of fire board.  Mostly looking at what kind of criteria and data you would like to see collected.  Send me a message or comment here if you have ideas.  Sadly no access to ballistic gel currently.


The east coast science lab decided to have a baby this spring so he will be unreachable for a week or so until the child is old enough to aid in our science.

Keep shooting


Master Post for Semi Lightweight Barrel Shootout

This post is a master archive for everything surrounding the Semi Lightweight Barrel Shootout.  The test was conducted over veterans day weekend of 2016.  The data was processed over several weeks following and as a result it became some what hard for the casual observer to jump into.  When reading this information remember that during much of the ammo presentation we did not know which barrel or ammo had shot the best and we simply presented it as we found it.


The original post can be found @ SLW Barrel Shoot Out.  We fluctuated back and forth with the procedure for the test and it went from something we could do for a good time to concentrating on presenting everything clearly.


Testing went relatively smooth but we found early that we would be presenting fewer groups than we would have liked and the process was taking longer than we had hoped.  All barrels shot one ten shot group of each of the ten ammo selections.  Then they fired two five shot groups of each of the ten ammo selections.  Resulting in 60 rounds fired of each ammo and 600 match grade rounds being fired overall.

We went after the ammunition break downs first and each of the ten can be found in the links below.
Australian Outback 69gr

PPU 69gr

Black Hills 69gr

Federal Gold Medal Match 69gr

PPU 75gr

PMC 77gr

ASYM 77gr

Federal Gold Medal Match 77gr

CBC 77gr

IMI 77gr

The data from each of the ammunition types was compiled in a Data Summery found @ SLW BARREL SHOOTOUT AMMO DATA SUMMARY

Finally we compared the barrels using both Extreme Spread and Mean Radius

We also have an ammunition comparison adding price in as a factor found in the Price for Performance rundown.

If you enjoyed reading about this particular test share with a friend.  We learned a lot on how we wanted to share data in the future and how much we could attack in a given time frame.

Barrel overview using mean radius/average to center on targets

Before we talk about any of our own data I feel it is important to talk about what mean radius is and what it should mean in terms of accuracy reporting.  Any time someone talks about accuracy or precision as a general subject they quantify that using the term MOA.  MOA stands for minute of angle and is an angular measurement.  Generally speaking when they use this term they are talking about the measurement of extreme spread which they are showing the furthest outside two shots.  With an extreme spread you can have multiple ten shot groups that may look very very different but can be reported as the same size.


The above group illustrates how two groups which look very different could be misinterpreted.  The group on the right at .646 MOA extreme spread would be considered larger than the .643 MOA extreme spread on the left.  The are very close and could be a calculation error.  The reality is that the group on the left is much tighter with one outlier shot.  This isn’t necessarily a ‘flier’ or shot that should be removed from the group information but it surely shouldn’t define the entire group.  This is where mean radius comes into play.  By measuring each rounds displacement from the center of the group we can compare groups based off of the average deviation form the center of the group thus incorporating every round of the group rather than the two furthest groups.  The average to the center of the target on the left is .176 while the target on the right is almost twice as dispersed at .309.

Extreme spread has held its hold on shoddy reporting thanks to its ease of use.  Technology has taken over most aspects of our life but it seems to just be too easy for a shooter to approximate the furthest two shots (or often times eliminate the furthest and compare only the interior most groups)

Luckily there is great software out that we can easily process group sizes.  One such product is ontarget when you process groups through on target you can quickly compare extreme spread as with average to center instantly.  If you see other shooters presenting groups you can also quickly find a reference point and find the mean radius for comparison sake.

So how did our barrels and ammo compare when measuring every round of the group rather than just the extreme spreads?  (note some of the graphs were made by Ryan and are good.  The graphs with no Black Hills info are made by yours truly.  The computer genius)

Lets start with the Ammunition mean radius averages


Right away we must remind that the ten round group for the Black Hills 69 grain was only 8 rounds for one barrel.  So 1/3 of the 10 round groups are slightly skewed and the combined data will be slightly different.  For that reason when we get to the barrel information there will be two graphics one with BH and one without.

Using mean radius we still see a rather tight pack among the full data of the ammunition results.  We still instantly pick up the larger PPU groups and find that it wasn’t a single or even a few misplaced rounds that sent the extreme spread to be the largest but the averages of the rounds to be routinely larger than the counterparts.


ammo-group-average-10-round-atcWhen showing just the ten round groups we see similar groups that do not line up as well as the others mostly the PPU offerings.  I feel compelled to remind again that the 10 shot group data for the Black Hills 69 had one excellent group of 8 rounds.

ammo-group-average-5-round-atcIn the five round groups we see the Black Hills is higher and is represented with a full sample size.

The barrel results are easier to read and compare.

5-round-group-average-atcI am leading off with the 5 shot groups as there are twice as many samples for them.  We also do not have any contamination in them.  The scale on this bar graph is at a very close examination.  There is only a difference of .04 moa over all the 5 round groups.  The three barrels all shot very well.

all-groups-average-atcWhen comparing all groups the criterion is about .05 moa tighter than both the BA and Larue offerings but this includes data for Black Hills 10 shot groups.

imageThe combined groups graph without Black Hills quickly shows off that I am a cave man that isn’t capable of simple computer tasks.  I couldn’t figure out how to put the numbers into the top and Ryan had actual things to do on a friday night. The figures are

Ballistic Advantage .584

Criterion .539

Larue .586

This doesn’t represent a huge change but it made me uncomfortable presenting data that was skewed.  I try to remind anyone looking at this that no groups were left out and any discrepancy from our method is noted.

10-round-group-average-atcTen shot groups with the BH data have been shown at a narrow range.  Remember that we are only looking at a difference of .11 moa from 1st to 3rd.

atc-10-shot-no-bhWithout Black Hills data again using my computer skills the values are

Ballistic Advantage .691

Criterion .607

Larue .660

The change from data containing all rounds and the data exluding the Black Hills 69 grain had no real change on the Ballistic Advantage or Larue barrels the Criterion had a shift from .5807 to .607.  This didn’t change much but is now representing a .09 moa change.

Below is each ammo broken down by barrel.  ppu-75gr-atc-barrel-data

asym-77gr-atc-barrel-data cbc-77gr-atc-barrel-data fgmm-77gr-atc-barrel-data imi-77gr-atc-barrel-data pmc-77gr-atc-barrel-dataaustralian-outback-69gr-atc-barrel-data black-hills-69gr-atc-barrel-data

It needs to be noted that the criterion 10 shot is mislabeled as a 10 shot when it is actually an 8 shot group.